SAIP Physics Review Meeting held at iThemba LABS June 27, 2002. Introduction The president, Dr Patricia Whitelock, thanked iThemba LABS and Prof. J Sharpey-Schafer for hosting the meeting and making the facilities of iThemba LABS available to the SAIP. She also thanked Prof Hendrik Geyer for all preparation he had done to make the meeting possible and Gudrun Schirge for standing in for Dr Prins Nevhutalu, NRF, who was unfortunately unable to attend. Dr Whitelock said: "I believed that science and technology are key to development in Africa, and that physics, which provides the foundation of so much else, has a special role to play in this development. If you share this view, as I know many of you do, then I hope we can work together on finding a way first to convince the policy makers, and then to make happen." Our objectives for today are modest: 1.1. We would like to inform you of a process NRF and SAIP have embarked upon to look at the future of physics in SA. 1.2 We would like to hear what you have to say about it - both at the meeting and by email afterwards, when you have had a chance to reflect and discuss with people not present. 1.3 Thirdly we would like your commitment to take part in this process, because it is only if you take part that you are likely to be happy with the results. The process is not yet fully defined and we are deliberately opening it up very early on in the hope of producing something that most people engaged in physics can find acceptable. This is not a process limited to physicists, although they are the people with the biggest stake. There are two secondary objectives: 2.1 I would like to see more involvement in the SAIP from people in the Western Cape. The organization is in the process of transformation and is attempting to make itself more relevant to the profession. We would particularly like to see engagement from people in industry and see how we can help them. If you join the organization now you will have a major opportunity to participate in making the organizing an effective one. 2.2 Finally we have some incredible physics initiatives going on here in the Western Cape as you will hear in the second part of the meeting. We need to do more to make each other, and particularly students and potential students, aware of what they might want to be part of. The overview of the idea and draft terms of reference are described: [PUT IN LINK TO DRAFT TOR DOCUMENT] The president then asked Gudrun Schirge of the NRF to address the meeting. I am standing in for Prins Nevhutalu who was invited to this meeting but who could unfortunately not attend. I would like to convey greetings from Dr Nevhutalu who wishes you all of the best for this meeting. Dr N is the Executive Director in the Research Support Agency of the NRF in Pretoria charged with the involvement in this initiative. As some of you will know the NRF have membership on a steering committee that is taking this process forward until the permanent management structures have been put into place. The NRF has been involved (to a greater or lesser extent) with the concerns expressed in the physics community about the status of physics for quite some time. Several years ago the then President of the SAIP came to the NRF expressing concerns about the lack of students/low intake of students into physics at both undergraduate and postgraduate level. Due to its internal reorganization the NRF was not able to pay particular attention to these issues but the position of physics was flagged. With the NRF's position in terms of research capacity development clearly emerging in recent years the current initiative of the physics community clearly dovetails in the NRF's core objective of strengthening disciplines/strengthening the knowledge base. The review of the state of physics in SA and the future of physics in SA therefore appears to be very timely and very appropriate. The offer of the Director General of DACST is a wonderful opportunity - in my opinion - for a thorough investigation into the status of physics in SA. In my experience a review or evaluation of this nature can only benefit physics. It may be painful here and there and result in quite a bit of work for you as physicists but in the end you will be able to use the results of a good review to great benefit to your discipline. There a quite a number of international studies that you will be able to draw on for background information. I am aware of similar studies in the UK and the Netherlands and there is good documentation available on these. The pre-1999 Dutch studies are available: http://www.vsnu.nl/show?id=631&langid=247 The results of the review of physics in the UK can be found at: http://policy.iop.org/Policy/Intrev.html Important lessons can be learned - the importance of well-defined scope and goals, independent review panels, realistic time frames are some of these. The level at which the review is to be conducted will also be important - will it be individual, programme, department, institutional level? In planning such a review there are many things that are crucially important which you will have to bear in mind. For example, you will have to have concise and meaningful terms for reference to guide the review. Time frames will be extremely important. An evaluation protocol will have to drawn up which clearly indicates the tasks of all the role players. But there are three issues that I would like to stress today and leave with you at this stage of development and planning of the review. These play a central role in obtaining a credible review result. They are: Obtaining buy-in of the stakeholder community Ensuring transparency of the process Developing an independent review - it must be set up in such a way that is it independent of the stakeholders Discussion George Ellis Other government departments such as the DTI should also be approached. J Sharpey-Schafer Who's going to pay? Dr Rob Adams said that DACST would but it will probably be the NRF! Patricia Whitelock That is not clear, but when we have a proper proposal we can take it to DACST with a request that they support it. The SAIP should take advantage of the people currently occupying key positions: Rob Adam was DG of DACST: as a physicist he would understand the problems of physics and be interested in finding ways that the discipline could contribute to National Development. The Minister, Dr Ben Ngubane and the President of NRF, Dr Khotso Mokhele were also key. Both were highly intelligent people with a strong interest in, and knowledge of, science and the potential of science to contribute to SA. Peter Wedepohl The SAIP should contact other people who had done similar reviews, such as the IoP, European and US physicists. Patricia Whitelock Contact had been made with the IoP and the US: in particular Alun Jones of the IoP had been most helpful, and a group from NRF, including Dr Nevhutalu, had visited IoP during a recent trip to London. Jean Cleymans In Holland the panel that had been set-up took 52 weeks to visit 9 universities: long would it take here? Gudrun Schirge The Dutch panel had met twice - once for 3 days and once for 7 days - but agreed that such a review as the SAIP planned would take time. J Sharpey-Schafer It would be a mistake to restrict the review to the universities. There had been reviews of these in the past. The review should include industry and most importantly, education. Gudrun Schirge The scope of the review was most important. Patricia Whitelock The review must include the National Facilities amongst others. Peter Wedepohl ... and don't forget the private sector. Fritz Hahne The SAIP should take its fate into its own hands. The result should not be prescriptive - things should evolve/develop naturally - there should be an entrepreneurial approach. Bruce Barlett Teachers should be involved. Patricia Whitelock How broad do we make the review? The SAIP is aware of the problem, but there is some concern about trying to do too much in one go. David Britton One should avoid the "Old Boys club" (Young Lady's club!!) The physics community goes beyond the universities and national facilities. The SAIP should approach other professional bodies and get government representation. Students should also have a voice at some level. Gudrun Schirge The review panel would visit universities and in that way get student opinion. Hans Eggers There are new growth areas such as CCS (Chaos and Complexity Studies) Biophysics etc. Input from these areas is also very important. David Aschmann Despite historical problems with SAIP and NRF they were the only organizations which could get this process going, but they must not have ownership of it. The review process should be commissioned by the community so that it is as inclusive as possible. We must also decide who is going to read the report or else no-one will act on it. So who reads the report: universities, government departments? Jean Cleymans By comparison who had done the Dutch review? Outsiders or internal people? Gudrun Schirge The panel consisted of 8 members: 6 foreigners and 2 Dutch business people. J Sharpey-Schafer The CEO of the IoP, Alun Jones had doubled the membership of the IoP - his view was that physicists were bad at political lobbying. Ben Ngubane had met no opposition to increases in funding - there was an open door! Patricia Whitelock Gets back to "who reads the report?" J Sharpey-Schafer Schools should read it! Peter Martinez It was important to consider a dissemination as well as an implementation strategy. Peter Wedepohl First set up a process to look at the report vs what can and should be done. Gudrun Schirge That is the purpose of the report Patricia Whitelock The long term process needs to be looked at. Is there anyone here who feels that the report is a waste of time? (There was no dissension). George Ellis We need an advocacy document. There would need to be a directive indicated. What links needed to be looked at. Peter Wedepohl Focus areas would emerge naturally - any additional material should be added as an Appendix. David Aschmann I would like to hear from students! Rorey Adams Something needs to be done - didn't know what but felt that more people needed to be involved, especially student representation on the panel. Wesley Damon Physics should start marketing itself. Schools have never heard of physics. Students would be prepared to help out here. Elmarie Mortimer Problem with the report was that nothing would be done about it afterwards. There must be a plan of action. In Japan the academic and industrial physicists looked at why women weren't going into physics - there were spin-off from this that identified other problems. Such as that if the report was too narrow it would be of no use, if it was too wide it would become too difficult. There was a need to review the problem - one way would be to pose a set of questions asking specific things such as "Why women don't go into physics". Terence Marais SAIP could learn from the government initiative of the Foresight Programme - it would indicate what they would expect from the report. The President closed the discussion at this point and asked Prof. Cleymans to address the meeting. The ALICE Project Discussion (replies in italics) Patricia Whitelock What are the implications for bandwidth? Jean Cleymans Critical! They were hoping for the Africa1 optical cable linking SA to the European centres. There was strong support from CERN. Long term plan was for there to be 1000 PC's linked at UCT to form a centre for computing. David Aschmann You are setting up for success, what are your current limits is it money, students etc.? Jean Cleymans Young students with a sound knowledge of LINUX were needed. It was also important to have regular exchanges with CERN and Berkeley. The Centre for Computational Studies was interdisciplinary. There being no further questions, the President asked Prof. Hendrik Geyer to address the meeting. Theoretical Physics and the Institute of Mathematical Sciences Discussion (replies in italics) Robbie Lindsay Whilst he was very supportive of the African Institute for Mathematical Sciences (AIMS) he got the gut feeling that it was crazy! The budget was huge: could the money not be better spent? Fritz Hahne The budget was not really enormous. It was the first real platform for a real collaboration between UWC, US and UCT and as such was really cheap. David Aschmann Money was not really the problem - the problem is the 'big guns' - they come and inspire our students and by the time our students have come to terms with what they have learned the 'big guns' are gone. Hendrik Geyer AIMS was pitched at post honours students and that the work could be incorporated into a masters or doctoral degree. David Aschmann This was the answer wanted. Gudrun Schirge should take this to the NRF. There being no further discussion the president asked Prof. David Britton to address the meeting. Solid State and Materials Physics. (see appendix for powerpoint slides) Solid State and Materials Physics could be divided into: Strategic Initiatives Research programmes At an international level there was the African Materials Research Society and at a regional level there was the Western Cape Materials Forum which was convened by Elmarie Mortimer from iThemba LABS. Other participants included UCT, UWC, US, Cape Technikon and Peninsula Technikon. The UCT thrust was in materials and manufacturing led by Margit HÄrting and covered a wide scope of fields from Archeology through surgery, cell and human biology to graduate business science! Theoretical, experimental and computational approaches to the study of materials in their natural setting, in processing environments and manufactured products led to: postgraduate education with an active focus on cross-faculty linkages, fundamental research on manufacturing materials and processing, financed through national and international funding agencies, applied research that caters for the needs of both local and national manufacturing industries. Research programmes involved many local, national and international collaborations in the fields of: hydrogen related defects, defect and microstructure, large area devices, positron states, dynamics and defect interactions and positron spectroscopy, stress-induced diffusion, clustering and precipitation, bubbles and nanostructures, bioactive coatings, ceramic hard coatings, stress and fatigue life. Discussion George Ellis These are exciting projects - could the physics groups focus on these areas solid state: physics. There are some interesting groups in the Western Cape - there is a company making seats for super sonic air liners here! Chris Theron You are interacting with many different disciplines - you will not be isolated - the future lies there. There was no further discussion and the president then asked Robbie Lindsay to address the meeting. Applied Physics in South Africa Discussion (replies in italics) Unidentified The basic problem is interfacing with real developmental problems in SA. Patricia Whitelock In PMB Physics Dept they are doing computational physics and astrophysics and having some success at attracting students. Chris Cole With reference to Dave's (Britton) talk; industry should be approached. In SA there are things that need looking at and theoretical physics should be looking at these - there is a lot of money for "needs" research. Theoretical physics is not all remotely esoteric mathematics but once on that course it is difficult to change. The president asked Dr Peter Martinez to address the meeting. African Institute of Space Science, AISS. This is an initiative to coordinate the existing space science activities in South Africa as the basis for the formation of an African Institute of Space Science. It is proposed that several existing academic and research centres could form the nodes of a multi-disciplinary and distributed organization, that would promote the development of space science in the region. Such an organization would have strong links to industry, with a view to harnessing space science and its supporting technologies for sustainable development in Africa. Discussion Raoul Viollier ICTP is not a good model for AISS - 1st world teaching to 3rd world students. Peter Martinez In AISS we will be addressing that very problem. George Ellis Will AISS have links to the WVO (World Virtual Observatory)? Peter Martinez SA will be taking part in the WSO (World Space Observatory) which has links to WVO - so yes. Since there were no further questions Patricia Whitelock briefly outlined the National Astronomy and Space Science Programme (NASSP) Researchers from around the region are joining forces to create a cooperative, combined programme where South African students --- and students from around Africa --- can earn Honours and Masters degrees while being mentored and taught by South Africa's leading space scientists. NASSP draws on scientists from 13 institutions at present: UCT, UFS, UN (Durban and PMB), UZ, UNW, Rhodes, UNISA, South African Astronomical Observatory, Hartebeesthoek Radio Observatory, Hermanus Magnetic Observatory and iThemba LABS. Others are likely to join in as well. For the first five years, NASSP will be hosted by the University of Cape Town. Lecturers from other institutions will spend time at UCT, working with students in their specialties before returning to home base. Students will travel to use southern Africa's space science research facilities. These will include the Southern African Large Telescope (the largest optical telescope in the southern hemisphere) and HESS (a new, powerful telescope array for studying gamma rays and cosmic rays) in Namibia, as well as the existing optical/infrared telescopes at Sutherland and the radio telescope at Hartebeesthoek. Southern Africa may also get the world's largest radio telescope, the Square Kilometer Array, though other contestants are still in the ring. The president then asked Prof. Sharpey-Schafer to address the meeting. iThemba Laboratory for Accelerator Based Science (see appendix for powerpoint slides) One of the problems facing SA today was the lack of trained physicists and this was due in part to the tertiary education programmes. A South African alternative to the traditional approach was described whereby students would do a 4year first degree followed by a 1 year masters course and a 3year doctoral period. There would be exit points at year 2 for a diploma, year 4 for the first degree and year 5 for a masters. Research at iThemba LABS covered nuclear physics, materials science and radio therapy. The production of radio nuclides was progressing well with sales for 2001/2 reaching R9M. Discussion Raoul Voillier Disagreed with the idea of doing away with the honours degree. The B.Sc degree is a good exit point. Ultimately there would be no difference. J Sharpey-Schafer This was not sustainable there is a need for large numbers of students going into physics for Ph.D's and you need black students. Raoul Voillier The problem lies at high school level. J Sharpey-Schafer Agreed! Hans Eggers How much does iThemba LABS get from the NRF? J Sharpey-Schafer Nothing from the NRF! Hans Eggers From DACST. J Sharpey-Schafer R64M. The president stopped further discussion due to time constraints and asked Prof. von Bergmann to address the meeting. Laser Physics in South Africa W Przybylowicz Main problem is to get students who go into business to have a strong basis in physics. Raoul Viollier Supports this idea. One solution would be to get students doing computer science to do physics as well. Introduce a computational physics course cf. PMB. Bruce Bartlett Physics is failing because there is no marketing. He would be prepared to go out and market physics - many students entering university had never heard of physics! Christine Steinman There is a perception that there are no jobs in physics. Patricia Whitelock The problem is marketing. The president then asked for any further comments. Robbie Lindsay Students choose applied physics in the hope of getting a job afterwards and they think applied physics will be better than theoretical physics for this. Raoul Viollier . . . . because skills are needed? Reginald Madjoe (?) Many students carry on to do postgraduate studies only because they don't get jobs - industry should be more involved. Robbie Lindsay Very few companies in South Africa do research. Chris Cole Students don't go on in university because they are taught that carrying on only leads to teaching and research at a university - there needs to be more vocational physics. David Britton IoP went to industry and got industrial physicists to talk about their success. Mark Horner Teachers should still be recruited into the SAIP irrespective of the review process. Maciej Soltynski There should be more time for discussion about the issues and less about physics at the other regional meetings. Hans Eggers What happened to the "Physics Survey"? Patricia Whitelock It is being handled by the Institute for Futures Research and the report is somewhat overdue, would Maciej Soltynski like to comment? Maciej Soltynski Did not want to comment. It being well past 17h00, the president thanked all for their time, efforts and attendance and closed the meeting.